Interview with Katy Murphy

Ahead of (No) Refunds returning to the Edinburgh Festival Fringe after a successful New York run and acclaimed Fringe debut, I caught up with Katy Murphy to discuss audience participation, performative pressure, and turning the brutal realities of being a working artist into a hilariously chaotic gameshow experience. Hosted by the dazzling (and slightly terrifying) Tiffany Gold, the show promises high-energy comedy, theatrical mayhem, and the very real possibility of one audience member winning their money back.

Where did the idea for (No) Refunds first come from?

This all began as an idea back in quarantine, March, 2020, when I lost three jobs in one day and was terrified by my sudden and complete financial dependency on friends, family, and the state as an out-of-work artist. I was angry and in shock at how what I thought was a carefully crafted system to sustain myself independently as an artist had crumbled in less than 48 hours. (No) Refunds interrogates what it means to create art under capitalism, the direct responsibility of audiences to compensate artists, and what a day’s work as an entertainer really feels like for our Star Players. To quote its host, Tiffany Gold, “Could YOU do this every day?”

Tiffany Gold sounds simultaneously delightful and deeply unhinged. How did you develop her as a character? 

Tiffany is everything I was afraid to be as a younger performer: a hard-to-work-with, borderline-delusional, self-involved, over-the-top, glitter-coated, femme as fuck, DIVA. In a way, she is my shadow self, a complete give-over to a version of myself I felt was the hardest for others to find palatable. I agree that she is simultaneously delightful and deeply unhinged, and if I had to live in her body for longer than an hour each night, I’d probably lose my mind. Yet, the gift of getting to live as her each night has actually challenged a lot of my own preconceptions about what sort of performer I want to be. She’s taught me to really bet on myself.

The other thing about Tiffany Gold? She loves an underdog. At her best, she is positively magnanimous with the light she sparkles around her. A Star Player who doesn’t believe in themselves? Well, Tiffany is their first fan. But woe to those who come onto her stage convinced they can upstage her… They risk her manicured claws coming out.

The premise of audiences potentially earning a refund immediately raises the stakes. Why was audience participation so central to the experience?

You gotta spend money to make money in this industry! Take Fringe, it’s going to cost us $20,000 (Just under £15,000) to get our team overseas, housed, and fed for the month of August. We’re making a bet that we can make that back. Just as we have risked it all to come to Scotland, we hope a few Star Players will risk a mere £30 for the chance to win it all back alongside us.

Not to mention shows with audience participation are my bread and butter as an artist. I’m most interested in how the art can directly engage with people LIVE, rather than how they digest it afterward. I approach all of my immersive/participatory work as a social experiment: what happens if I push your buttons here?

Beneath the comedy, the show explores the realities of being a working artist. How important was it to ground the absurdity in something truthful?

“The truth is stranger than fiction” is a cliché for a reason. Often the most absurd concept I can imagine as a playwright isn’t as good as the reality of what happened, and that’s where this show becomes a bit more performance art than performativity.

What makes game shows such a rich format for satire?

Game shows have built-in stakes because they gamify all audience participation. Not to mention, any good host becomes a larger-than-life caricature. The format feels familiar enough that audiences can relax under the impression they know what they’re getting, and that’s when you sneak in a one-two punch of reality behind the facade.

How much of the show changes each night depending on the audience?

Each show, our Star Player will select 3 out of 9 possible games, and then on top of that, every game is massively altered by their engagement with it (or refusal to engage: they just risk forfeiting their refund). Similar to shows like Taskmaster or even The Price is Right: although the basic structure of the show remains the same, the different games and Star Player participation mean there’s an entirely new experience every evening.

After the success of last year’s Fringe run and the New York performances, has the show evolved significantly?

YOU BETCHA! The very act of repetition has sharpened this show into a far more finely tuned experience than what we brought last year. I’ve also written three new games: Trial by Typecast, Fan Feedback, and Sex Sells, which are inspired by experiences I’ve had as an entertainer since we first debuted the show. While the concept is the same, the performance is so much cleaner, and I’m really proud of our team for leveling up with each new opportunity. 

Audience interaction can sometimes make people nervous. How do you create an atmosphere where audiences feel willing to play along?

(No) Refunds exists in its gameshow format with one Star Player and a general admissions audience because of this very sentiment! Before (No) Refunds, I worked with an immersive company called Candle House Collective that specializes in one-on-one experiences. I often received feedback from friends and family that, although they were thrilled to see me employed, they were put off by the intimate nature of those experiences and would opt out of getting a ticket themselves. 

By having two levels of participation, (No) Refunds audience members can choose if they’d like the high-interactivity experience (nerves and all!) of being our Star Player, or if they’d prefer to hide in the General Admissions audience where participation is far less confrontational and fully of their own volition.

Our Star Players have a solo one-on-one onboarding experience before the show starts that serves to set them up with the ideal mindset to succeed onstage. My job as the host is to bring out their best performance, and every moment before they step onstage is designed to prime them for that. I’ll leave it at that as I don’t want to spoil the onboarding for any prospective stars, just rest assured that we won’t send you out to flail!

Comedy often works best when there’s genuine discomfort underneath it. How far do you like pushing audiences?

Tiffany Gold will push the Star Player as far as she can. If you want to be a star, you must handle discomfort. The third round of games is always designed to force them to take a real risk in front of the general admissions audience, and it’s not always a success. That said, they have a safe phrase if Tiffany pushes them past the bounds they can handle, which will end their experience at any time. The show must go on, of course, and we have an understudy protocol for when that occurs.

As far as the general admissions audience goes, their discomfort is merely the average experience of complicity in an entertainment format that requires artists to commodify their personal relationships, identity, sexuality, trauma, etc. for financial gain. After a day at the Fringe, we figure they should be able to manage that just fine ;)

If someone gets chosen as the star player, how nervous should they realistically be?

My acting professor in college used to say, “Nerves are good; being nervous means you care.” If you’re going to be a STAR you better CARE. 

Also the Star Player is a specific ticket available on our ticketing platforms (only one per performance) as opposed to an audience selection process! First-come, first-served, because the first step to becoming a star is betting on yourself.

Why do you think interactive theatre is resonating so strongly with audiences right now?

Gimme a moment to hoist myself up onto my anti-AI soapbox… AUDIENCES DON’T KNOW WHAT IS REAL ANYMORE! THE BEAUTY OF A SINGULAR EXPERIENCE HAPPENING BEFORE YOUR EYES THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY IMPACT HAS INCREASED IN VALUE! IT IS AN ART FORM AI CANNOT REPLACE BECAUSE IT REQUIRES AT MINIMUM TWO HUMAN BEINGS IN A ROOM! IT REQUIRES MISTAKES! IT REQUIRES DISCOVERY! IT CANNOT BE REPLICATED BY A LANGUAGE LEARNING MODEL! Ok, I’m coming back down now… If not for that reason, maybe folks just love fucking with actors and seeing how they react? Who knows? All I know is I’m exploiting the trend for financial gain.

What do you most hope audiences take away from (No) Refunds beyond just having a great time?

 For our Stars, a deeper understanding of whether or not they value their own artistic labor (and a full refund, if they’ve earned it!). For the General Admissions audience, the competitive drive to sign up for the next available Star Player ticket and see if they fare any better than the one they saw.

A huge thank you to Katy Murphy for taking the time to chat with me about the show. Combining audience interaction, biting satire, and full-throttle theatrical chaos, this sounds set to become one of the Fringe’s most entertaining late-night experiences once again. (No) Refunds run at Edinburgh Festival Fringe from 5–31 August (excluding 18 August) at Gilded Balloon Patter House. Tickets and further information can be found via her website katy-murphy.com as well as via instagram @norefundsplay or @katymurphyfanaccount.